From my Comments:
"There's a good article in The New Yorker this week about the neo-conservative's view / argument for US imperialism. Also explains why it hasn't worked out as much as they'd hoped - namely the state's power is supposed to be *checked* by the populus in order to give it credibility and keep it from sinking into the inevitable darkness of tyranny. (The state being the United States of the World.) Funny, how groups of wise men always seem to think that they will be the exception to this rule... but human beings instincts haven't dulled over yet. The voters can still smell."
Assuming the article mentioned is 100% correct, "hasn't worked out as much as they hoped" is significantly better than the alternative: 9/11 II. Like I've said before, Al-Qaida didn't start attacking us on 9/11 - they stopped.
8 years of Clinton (and frankly I'm not sure if he would have had much choice due to the unpopular nature of war in general) demonstrated a reluctance to defend ourselves, culminating in the 9/11 attacks. It took thousands of dead Americans and assaults on our core institutions on our own soil to wake up enough people to the fact that there was a real danger.
No matter how much the Liberati want to paint this war as an "imperial march" (you should look up imperialism, btw), the fact remains that enough of our country wanted to go to war to defend ourselves from a clear, present, and growing danger. As a result, Al-Qaida's on the run, with their members being captured or killed. At long last, Iraq has been liberated from Saddam Hussein's regime, if not yet from their own limitations. The disasterous option of containment, the popular alternative to this war one hears about constantly, has finally been retired.
I am still waiting to hear proposals for what should be done, and then responses to the evidence for those proposals not working before. It's easy to criticize, it's hard to create.
Of course things aren't working out as well as planned - but is inaction a superior alternative?
Follow up to some of the comments:
Regarding the "lies", as usual, I like to see what both sides have to say instead of just parroting what the righteous have put out that week.
Jonah Goldberg from The Washington Times writes about lies
Spinsanity on "imminent threat"
And for those of us who listen and/or believe in David Kay, who is currently the most knowledgable person on Earth about Iraq WMD, his recent report to the Senate is a must-read.
From Kay's report to the Senate (which I was lucky enough to watch in its entirety on C-SPAN, btw):
"As leader of the effort of the Iraqi Survey Group, I spent most of my days not out in the field leading inspections. It's typically what you do at that level. I was trying to motivate, direct, find strategies.
In the course of doing that, I had innumerable analysts who came to me in apology that the world that we were finding was not the world that they had thought existed and that they had estimated. Reality on the ground differed in advance.
And never -- not in a single case -- was the explanation, "I was pressured to do this." The explanation was very often, "The limited data we had led one to reasonably conclude this. I now see that there's another explanation for it."
And each case was different, but the conversations were sufficiently in depth and our relationship was sufficiently frank that I'm convinced that, at least to the analysts I dealt with, I did not come across a single one that felt it had been, in the military term, "inappropriate command influence" that led them to take that position.
It was not that. It was the honest difficulty based on the intelligence that had -- the information that had been collected that led the analysts to that conclusion.
And you know, almost in a perverse way, I wish it had been undue influence because we know how to correct that.
We get rid of the people who, in fact, were exercising that."
I fear that no matter how much evidence I offer, it will not suffice. I could go on - but what's the point? If you hate someone, even good deeds by them seem nefarious. I like to think that I base my judgements and understanding on the best information currently available, and I've admitted numerous times that I was wrong when presented with better information because my interest is in the truth, and in using the truth to make things better.
Too few people share my view on this - and far too many are in love with their righteous indignation or their smug contentment.
Posted by Matt at February 3, 2004 10:16 AMread more »
when was the last time you heard me complain about the government?
Posted by: scratchymonkey at February 5, 2004 05:52 PMNot giving a shit!!??
Hmmm. Dunno. I guess that basically works out. Kinda lose out on bitching rights though.
Posted by: Matt at February 4, 2004 01:05 PMdoes not really giving a shit fall under the category of "righteous indignation or smug contentment"?
Posted by: scratchymonkey at February 4, 2004 12:50 PMAnd still I wait to hear alternatives, instead of the ceaseless whine.
Posted by: Matt at February 4, 2004 11:13 AMMy first, and likely last, politically centric comment.
Why is it such a huge deal when some asshole with bad public speaking skills lies to you? Our signifigant others and fmaily members have lied to us at some point. You yell about it, they do or don't admit it and after a while everything is back the way it was. You trust them less, but they are still your boyfriend/lover/wife/father etc.
Lying is not something I look for in anyone when selecting them for any role in my life, however everyone does it at some point. We swallow tons of lies everyday. Politicians will lie, we just get pissed when we find out about it. Ignorance is bliss.
I don't think our upset with Bush should be about telling the truth, because that is not honest on our part. The problem (as I see it) that we have with Bush is his practically complete disagreement with our beliefs and methodologies about what is right/good and how to go about fulfilling those beliefs. If a candidate we desired was in office and lied (and he will) we would be able to ignore it as well, because he is serving us in an acceptable manner.
Politics are frequently about someone being wrong and I frankly hate it. Our country was built on lies, that much I can bear, but having to put someone (or many people) down and say how wrong and stupid they are seems like a horrible way of trying to make things right. That just makes people hate you, feel bad about themselves and then act from a defensive position rather than a healthy and constructive one. Furthermore, it alientates me from it.
Regardless of what asshole is running the country, we will continue to be as happy (or not) as we are today. Work or no work, partner or no partner. War or no war. We live our lives in an attempt to be happy and we will continue to seek out happiness. No matter how good life is, we will find reasons to bitch even if the candidate we wanted wins and does what he says he'll do. Even if you never find out that he lied too.
Posted by: scratchymonkey at February 4, 2004 09:53 AMI know what imperialism is. Do you think the ultra-republicans don't know what it is? Or that this isn't the focal point of the plan?
I'd like to know if you feel even slightly more safe from terrorism now than before. Because, I honestly don't. Was I scared and angry after the 11th? yes. Did I consider the possible reasons why war might be necissary, along with the rest of the nation? yes. But come on. Is the country a safer place after invading Iraq? I don't feel safer. The holes are everywhere. Aside from the planes, the boats and the loading docks are insanely vulnerable for attack.
Al-Quaida is not on "the run". That's what Bush's double-speak; oh wait, sorry - he's too arrogant or stupid or both for that; his lies might indicate. Wait a second - maybe he is so good at lying that he doesn't have to hide it any more. The bigger the lie, the easier it is for people to accept... (hhm, topic for another time) Anyway, hatred is growing and feeding terrorism. But CBS won't air this side of the story. And if the Republicans had it their way, all media sources would be owned by one, giant, corrupt conglomerate.
The people who wanted to go to war to defend the country were lied to about the nature of the "clear and present danger". And they are not happy about it.
Maybe there's someone else on the "hotseat" worth mentioning right now. Your president lied to you. And everyone knows it. You think he won't lie again?
I just don't understand how you can swallow so many lies, knowing full well, as you do it.